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Old 07-03-2018, 03:02 AM
  #16
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As I once recall being told, Joss has said that he believes James had better chemistry with David than Charisma and Charisma has admitted that it was hurtful to hear this.
Considering what had gone on between Joss and Charisma during the 4th season, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd meant that comment to hurt her.

I think he's wrong. It's equal if D/C isn't better.
Ugh, I hope it's not true. Why does Joss always do/say such ridiculous things? I don't want to compare chemistry. He had it with them both, in different ways.


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That's correct. 'You're Welcome' was intended to feature Buffy rather than Cordelia.
SMG declined both this episode and 'The Girl in Question' (thank god, I hate that episode with enough of a passion as it is) because her Aunt died then her subsequent shooting schedule for The Grudge.
The Girl in Question was unbelievably silly. Kinda sums up Season 5.


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Christ, I don't consider Jasmine!Cordy/Connor a part of a love triangle, that in itself is disgusting but otherwise I concur. That entire season was unforgivable.
I meant Angel/Cordy/Connor It's all disgusting, anyway. The whole oedipus complex thing.


Jasmine being their daughter... Just, no.
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:18 PM
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Ugh, I hope it's not true. Why does Joss always do/say such ridiculous things? I don't want to compare chemistry. He had it with them both, in different ways.
I concur that assuming it's a real statement, and I'm sure it was considering how verbally and emotionally abusive he was to Charisma, it was quite rude of him to pit them against each other.
Their characters have entirely different relationships with Angel and even in similar cases such as Cordelia/Angel vs. Buffy/Angel the relationships are still unique and shaped by unique circumstances.
Charisma, Sarah, and James are also entirely different people.

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The Girl in Question was unbelievably silly. Kinda sums up Season 5.
It was unbelievably immature and disrespectful to all involved, mentioned and ahem ignored! But first and foremost it had Angel disrespect his love for Cordy just because he had to be validated as better than Spike.

I had a difficult time refraining from throwings things at my television throughout the entire thing.

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I meant Angel/Cordy/Connor It's all disgusting, anyway. The whole oedipus complex thing.
That's what I was referring to. I don't consider Angel/Jasmine!Cordy/Connor a love triangle because the latter part of it wasn't legit. It couldn't have been any more wrong if Angel and Connor had come to an agreement to share her! Alright, that might have made it a tad more wrong.

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Jasmine being their daughter... Just, no.
Technically she's not as far as I'm concerned because she already existed she just needed Cordy's body to manifest on earth.
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Old 07-04-2018, 03:01 PM
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The Girl in Question was just a pathetic reminder that Angel and Spike loved the same woman. We already knew this and it made them look like lovesick teenagers.


Spike had a more recent relationship with Buffy, so I understood his behavior, but NOT Angel's That was yet another attempt to make the audience forget about Cordelia and what he shared with her. That's why I hate Season 5. It tries to create a new backstory. I'd say the only good thing is the lack of Connor.
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Old 07-04-2018, 04:46 PM
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The Girl in Question was just a pathetic reminder that Angel and Spike loved the same woman. We already knew this and it made them look like lovesick teenagers.
It also made Angel appear to have disregarded Cordelia's memory, their friendship and love like a toothbrush that fell in the toilet because he more or less faked his end of the fight just so Spike couldn't come out ahead of him.

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Spike had a more recent relationship with Buffy, so I understood his behavior, but NOT Angel's That was yet another attempt to make the audience forget about Cordelia and what he shared with her.
I concur it's Angel's behavior that infuriates me, see the above. This, in turn, was also disrespectful to Buffy and Nina.
Remember he claimed, "I have a girlfriend" in reference to Nina to pass himself off as the more mature one.
In my fanon, he was referring to Cordelia regardless of her death.
As the Princess Bride Westley said: "Death doesn't stop true love."
It doesn't dilute the BS but is still somewhat comforting.

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That's why I hate Season 5. It tries to create a new backstory. I'd say the only good thing is the lack of Connor.
For most of the season, at least. He returns in three episodes; 'Origins', 'Power Play' and 'Not Fade Away'. He even helps Angel fight Hamilton in NFA.
(BTW, one of several ways in which season 5 almost directly disregards Cordelia is here, when Hamilton throws her name and Doyle's and Fred's names at Angel as people he'd betrayed and emphasized Fred's name rather than Cordelia's).
He's better though, the new life Vail gave him softened him to Angel considerably.

Then in ATF, he remembers being cared for by Angel and Cordelia as an infant (I have no idea how that's possible or what the trigger was and it doesn't explain) which was the moment he, at last, accepted that parental connection to Angel and to Cordelia as well.

Earlier you'd called Connor/Jasmine!Cordy an Oedipus complex and ironically so does he at this point:
"Aw come on! Fantastic, my first time was with my surrogate mother! Not only am I am immaculate vampire baby, I'm also Oedipus!"

After this point, Connor and Angel become very close.
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:22 AM
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It also made Angel appear to have disregarded Cordelia's memory, their friendship and love like a toothbrush that fell in the toilet because he more or less faked his end of the fight just so Spike couldn't come out ahead of him.
As I recall, it was confirmed by Joss that he originally planned for Angel to reveal to Buffy about his true feelings for Cordelia in the same 'Chosen' scene of BTVS Season 7 Finale where she admits she loves Spike.

It's quite obvious why he changed his mind Another dig at Charisma. Plus, he wanted to make it all about Angel's former puppy love for Buffy, just to conclude the show and please Bangel shippers.


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I concur it's Angel's behavior that infuriates me, see the above. This, in turn, was also disrespectful to Buffy and Nina.
Remember he claimed, "I have a girlfriend" in reference to Nina to pass himself off as the more mature one.
In my fanon, he was referring to Cordelia regardless of her death.
As the Princess Bride Westley said: "Death doesn't stop true love."
It doesn't dilute the BS but is still somewhat comforting.
I wasn't crazy on the Angel/Nina thing but it was WAY better than Angel/Eve, and yes it was hilarious/gross to me how Angel conveniently forgets Nina in 'Girl in Question'.


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For most of the season, at least. He returns in three episodes; 'Origins', 'Power Play' and 'Not Fade Away'. He even helps Angel fight Hamilton in NFA.
Connor was definitely more bearable in S5 but take note that they had to COMPLETELY change his character, in order for that to happen.

I actually think the S5 Finale's strongest moment is when Connor quietly acknowledges that he remembers Angel is his father, and he appreciates that Angel gave him to another family to allow him to start a new life.


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(BTW, one of several ways in which season 5 almost directly disregards Cordelia is here, when Hamilton throws her name and Doyle's and Fred's names at Angel as people he'd betrayed and emphasized Fred's name rather than Cordelia's).
I hated that, too A very bad move by Joss. As much as I grew to like Fred, Season 5 really tries to disconnect our memories from Cordy's important role in the group. It's really disrespectful - not just to her memory, but to Charisma.
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:47 PM
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As I recall, it was confirmed by Joss that he originally planned for Angel to reveal to Buffy about his true feelings for Cordelia in the same 'Chosen' scene of BTVS Season 7 Finale where she admits she loves Spike.
Yup, he was also going to tell Buffy about Connor.

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It's quite obvious why he changed his mind Another dig at Charisma. Plus, he wanted to make it all about Angel's former puppy love for Buffy, just to conclude the show and please Bangel shippers.
According to the Wikia, "This was ultimately changed so not to confuse too much of Angel's storyline with Buffy's."

Because as far as I'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense, it could be a load of crap cover up.

Though it's possible that his or the Wikia's wording is poor, that it was felt that it gave Angel too much spotlight and/or rubbed his brief "normal" happiness in Buffy's face when this was taking place on her show, not his.

Additionally, David Boreanaz was apparently only available to shoot for 7 hours. So time constraint might have also played into it. In the entertainment industry, I don't think 7 hours is as long as it sounds.

Joss has also clarified that 'Chosen' was NOT intended to either get B/A back together or even suggest the possibility, it was just a tribute to the fans.
That as far as I am aware, B/A never get back together and B/S do seem to support this.

Tidbit: I've been told that Joss has also made a statement about Buffy's reaction to C/A, that if she had found out, she'd have initially laughed.

Neither of them needed to validate themselves to the other, Buffy only had to explain her relationship with Spike because Angel scented him on her and asininely pushed her about it.
I abruptly feel the need to give Angel a bit of a break for that because he was in a considerably dark place, having JUST put Cordelia in the hospital and gave Connor away. I believe that was all about resenting Spike for becoming essentially a version of him with more freedom (his soul) not about Buffy choosing his grandchilde over him.

When I watched it, I remember being quite put off by how cold and hard like stone he was. I almost wondered if it wasn't actually him but The First or something.
I felt like that entire encounter was more or less another Darla thing, that he was numb and just trying to feel something, anything. The amulet was just a convenient excuse to show up.

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I wasn't crazy on the Angel/Nina thing but it was WAY better than Angel/Eve, and yes it was hilarious/gross to me how Angel conveniently forgets Nina in 'Girl in Question'.
I refuse to call either legit "things".
Eve was an unnatural encounter caused by Lorne's malfunctioning mojo (though I can't explain his waving his **** in her face when she showed up at his penthouse).

Nina was the most prominent and disrespectful attempt to erase Cordelia. She was uncomfortable and sloppily pushed on Angel. It was appalling.
Wesley's '99.999% of relationships make due with acceptable happiness' was absolute BS (the curse specifically requires only a moment of perfect happiness and a moment is approximately 90 seconds) and I can only pass the 'when you find someone who represents even part of what you think makes the world worth fighting for' portion that describes what Cordelia was to Angel to a tee because his train of thought had clearly detoured to his feelings for Fred.

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Connor was definitely more bearable in S5 but take note that they had to COMPLETELY change his character, in order for that to happen.
More like fixed it. The family memories that Angel had Vail give him softened him. Being raised in a hell dimension by a vengeful sociopath had destroyed him.

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I actually think the S5 Finale's strongest moment is when Connor quietly acknowledges that he remembers Angel is his father, and he appreciates that Angel gave him to another family to allow him to start a new life.
For me, it was ATS when he actually remembers his infancy with C/A which convinces him, at last, that Angel really does love him and that his sexual relationship with Jasmine!Cordelia was wrong.
My only beef is that it isn't specified if he was ever told that it wasn't actually Cordelia he had that relationship with.

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I hated that, too A very bad move by Joss. As much as I grew to like Fred, Season 5 really tries to disconnect our memories from Cordy's important role in the group. It's really disrespectful - not just to her memory, but to Charisma.
Agreed 110%.
I do like Fred but hated that her death had the impact that Cordelia's should have.
We didn't even get to see Angel tell the others that she died and I'll never forgive her absence from Angel's fever dreams in 'Soul Purpose'. Especially because one of them is him watching B/S having sex (No, fortunately, it wasn't a real Buffy appearance, it was a brief back shot with no lines so just a stunt girl).
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:38 PM
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I've compiled a full fic rec list on my LJ for anyone interested:
http://thewolfsmoon.livejournal.com/30566.html

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Jul 31, 2018:

I'm watching That Vision Thing on iTunes (or rather my favorite parts) and I just noticed this line of Angel's:
"I don't suppose we know what this other dimension is like - I mean, besides fortress-y and demon-y."
Cordy totally rubbed off on Angel.
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:45 AM
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Haven't had any pretty in here for a while







...under all of this
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:52 PM
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Haven't had anything in here in a while.
Those are some of the best CA closeness moments. Except the dream one in 'Awakening'.
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Old 08-07-2018, 05:56 AM
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of the dream scenes really...
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:38 PM
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Well, the dream scenes are Angel's deepest desires and tell a lot more than he ever did verbally which I find meaningful but I refuse to regard them as actual C/A moments that represent their relationship because they are not.

They were beautiful fantasies but the keyword there is fantasies.

The beach dream in 'Deep Down' downright irks me. I hate that Angel's response when Cordy confesses her love is "I need you".
I'd buy it if it had been Cordy's dream due to her insecurities about B/A but not in Angel's especially considering he had her confess first.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:20 AM
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I agree, in his fantasies in Awakening too, Cordy just comes across as kind of...weak. I don't really know how else to put it
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:03 PM
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I never got that impression but it would fit.
Angel does kind of see her as fragile and himself as her protector because he's still something of an 18th-century man at heart.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:55 PM
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Hello I am a big Cangel fan. And wanted you to ask, if you can maybe add me to the list?
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:23 AM
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Welcome to the thread, I'm sure you'll be added soon
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